re: SGOT Cheating

[Lapdance]

I want to post this because I have been accused of being a cheater and hadn’t had a chance to reply to it before the thread was locked. I don’t want to start a flame war but I wanted to respond to what people had said about me directly. I hope that the management of this board does not get angry with me for posting this. If you need to delete it I will understand

I was the guy who went out into the field and looked for my "lost barrel” while I was heading over to the drug cartels base to deliver 2 bags of money. Before I left on my mission I asked the head ref if what I was doing was a legal move to make. He said that it was ok but that a ref was required to follow me. I was less than thrilled about this but I accepted this limitation and asked what the referee was supposed to do. The ref was instructed that if anyone asked him what he was doing, he was to tell them he was following the money for the money drop mission. He was also was to tell them I was a live player if anyone asked that question directly. I then proceeded across the field and put my plan into effect, with great success I might add.

I know a lot of people are thinking that this is "grey area" playing and not what scenario is all about. Let me try to explain this in a way that might make sense from a mil-sim perspective. I was representing a person from a rebel force, a non-uniformed insurgent uprising shall we say. I decided to use stealth and deception as my weapon instead of a gun. That is exactly what an insurgent force would have done in that circumstance. They would have lied saying they were on their way to grandma’s house or some such nonsense and it would have been up to the UN people to verify the truth of this. What makes it even easier on the “UN” scenario player part is that there are no "civilians" to have to worry about shooting. You knew for a fact because of my armband tape that I was a member of the opposing force. All you had to do was think outside the box. I even had a referee shadowing me that was instructed to give me away if he was questioned. To tell you all the truth we didn't think I had a snowballs chance in hell of making it.

I would like to also share what was said to me by one of the UN players on my way back after I had delivered the money. By this time I guess you somehow found out that I did this and someone had radioed to everyone about it. One guy stopped me and asked me if I was the one looking for my barrel. I could tell from the look in his eyes he was beyond pissed about what I had done. At that point I surrendered and called myself out. He then told me that I was to kneel on the ground in front of him and he was "going to shoot me in the back of the head execution style". I, of course, had no intention of doing any such thing and told him so. I wouldn’t have brought this episode up publicly but I wanted to point out that one of these "honorable" players who would never "stoop" to doing a dead mans walk, would consider assaulting a player who had already called himself out. And make no mistake about it, that would have been assault and I would have pressed charges.

I also wanted to explain what happened with the players who were in the bank and were told to leave when we went to reinsert. In the rules that everyone was supposed to read it said that only rebel forces members could enter the bank and only drug cartel members could enter the sniper tower. The rules also stated that upon insertion the referee would escort the rebel forces to the bank where they would then be live players. As anyone who was in that town during our first insertion attempt saw we were made "live" as soon as we crossed that line at the edge of town. We were not allowed to have any cover as we ran through a 1 1/2 meter opening that was within range of almost anyone who was in any of the buildings that were part of the town. There was close to 20 meters from the opening of the trail to the bank which was the closest feasible building to hit. Needing to also clear that building before we had any cover was close to impossible. If we could have just gone back to that 1 1/2 meter opening when we were shot out it might not have been as bad, but we had to go all the way back down the trail to the asphalt road and touch it and then make it back to the end of the trail within the 2 minute reinsertion window. I was the one who asked that you all be removed from the bank before we reinserted into the town. We were told to go by the referees before you had found cover which was a mistake on their part, and I am sorry it happened to you.

None of this was any fault of the players on the UN side. This was the fault of the management of the game, more specifically the game designer. As many who read the rules likely saw the rules were incredibly vague. For those who think that all of the things were just given to us I would like to point out that not all the rules broke our way. The rules stated that only the players who were part of the Rebel Forces could enter the bank. During the hostage rescue mission we were told that the CNN reporter we had as a hostage could go anywhere in western town that we wanted to take him. That is until we said we were taking him into the bank. Then he was allowed to go anywhere but the bank. As some of you might remember you held at least half of the town at that point and it was pretty much a lost cause for us. I am saying this not to belittle you and your efforts, but to point out that this game and the rules were extremely poorly written. SGOT decided to put on a scenario game but instead of building upon what scenario producers have done for years they decided to try and reinvent the wheel. There is even a rule set out there (the GSRP that was referenced earlier in the thread that was closed) that all you need to do to use it is click on a button on the website.

One last thing about my “lost barrel” dead mans walk. As Robert Duhon will attest to I was talking to a couple of new players after the game and telling them exactly what they had to do to keep something like that from happening to them in a game the next time they play. I had these tricks pulled on me before, and I listened to those who pulled them who had more experience than I, and you know what... I learned from them. I guess you can learn from your past mistakes or continue on your present course and complain about how unfair it is.

[htownstr8jackn]

Nice write up man, all said and done its over and everyone had a wonderful time out there. It's always a pleasure playing with a group of fellas and team mates that love the game. I must add one more time "That weather sure was nice" . You made good points about designer and etc. But not reason to ramble about it and get your thread locked. But you guys rocked also both teams came with their game face on and their thinking caps on. Never know we might have a chance with rolling with some of you guys in the future.

[shadowjin]

Sounds like old fasioned, tactical scenario smarts to me. You didn't break any rules so you did nothing wrong.

I'll see you at T-Rev Lapdance on the Cobra side. :cool:

[Metal Cowboy]

I wonder. since I was one of these guys forced out of the bank and then was shot in the back of my head as I walked out . . . should i press charges?

[Rick]

:rolleyes: We all know what you did Lapdance. It was as clear as clear could be. You went out there and used some of those nasty tactics that Thunderstruck is now almost famous for and now you are getting called onto the carpet for it. Shame on you, shame on whoever taught you such nasty evil things. I'll bet it was that evil-incarnate TB who did it. You can admit it if it was, it fits right into what I already know about him anyway. How many of you Thunderstruck players were out there doing those type things anyway? :rolleyes:

[DeceptionLeader]

oh wat a damn shame

[Lapdance]

I wonder. since I was one of these guys forced out of the bank and then was shot in the back of my head as I walked out . . . should i press charges?

Only if the intent was there to specificly cause harm... but you knew that already :rolleyes:

That wasn't taught to me by the big bad mean ol' TB, Rick.. I learned that one from Viper. In fact after I called and told him about what happened his words to me were, "you have learned well, young padewan" :cool:

[pbchevo]

hey lapdance me and my buddy talked to you at the end of the game and its what i said before WE LEARN FROM OUR MISTAKES.
All we need to do if this happens is go up the the "with the missing barrel" as saying barrel tag.

[clearush]

Having a reff on you like that just makes that walk all the more awesome of a stunt to pull off successfully.

[Raadio]

Having a reff on you like that just makes that walk all the more awesome of a stunt to pull off successfully.


That was kind of what we were thinking when we watched him leave the rebel camp! :D

[Tank]

CHEATER!!!!!!!!!!!















Sounds like angry players that did not think of it first. Hope all had fun?

Isn't that why they are called games?

[Rob-G]

Hahaha..:D

[MikeSmith]

That was kind of what we were thinking when we watched him leave the rebel camp! :D

I thought he was gonna get "lit up" about 50 yards into his walk.

I was very skeptical about his attempt to mosie through the entire UN & Columbian forces, especially with the ref's instructions if they questioned the ref.

[MikeSmith]

While we are discussing aspects of the game, there have been rumors about cheating with the transport of the drugs. I saw no cheating{except for hot guns...actually, I didn't see that, but I felt it}.

The rules clearly stated the Drug Cartel was to give the packages to the Rebels. When that occurred {in the playing field, with all members involved being "live players"}, their job/mission was complete. The rules never stated the drugs had to be given to the Rebels AT THE Rebel BASE.

After about 10 packages were given to the Rebels while they were near the Cartel's base, the Rebels were shot out, so they left the field. When they re-inserted, they were required to re-insert into their base, thus completing their part of the mission to deliver the drugs to western town. Nowhere in the rules was there anything that stated what to do with the drugs being carried by the Rebels when they were shot out.

So when the Colombian & UN teams shot the Rebels, they helped the Rebels to complete their mission.

[Viper Paintball]

I am making no comments/observations on the event, as I wasn't there.

However, I DO have major issues with people being outplayed/outthought by others trying to turn it around on them and claim they are "cheaters" and "have no honor."

I was in this sort of situation at another event in Texas in 2007, and I made this post on my forums.

After playing at many fields this year and witnessing, firsthand, the sad state of honor in paintball (and society as a whole I’m afraid) I feel that a change may be necessary at my events.

Over a decade ago I asked the first scenario players in this half of the nation, at the first Viper event ever (which was this part of the country's first scenario event), if they wanted to accept any player and behavior in the interest of having really large games really fast, or if they wanted to maintain, and expect, certain standards of behavior from players, shunning those who are not sportsmanlike, in the interest of creating something that we would all be proud of later. I told them all that I would support either position. If they wanted big and fast I would push and push to get every player I could, and keep them no matter what. Or, if they chose character and standards I would be happy to deal with losing a few players here and there in the best interest of the group, and not make them feel obligated to be friendly to, and welcome, everyone.

They chose to build something great…and they did. All I did was help.

I have been playing in other places over the years and have seen a growing trend that bothers me greatly.

After two decades of playing scenarios I have learned a few tricks/skills. One of them is how to, legally, penetrate enemy lines and get behind them using subterfuge and deceit. Lately, when I use these tricks/skills and someone falls for them, instead of learning and appreciating the lesson presented to them, it seems they'd rather point at me, call me names, and accuse me of “cheating” even if they have to embellish the story and claim they saw the cheating take place.

Example: At the last two games I played I managed to backdoor many players, whether by barrel–tagging (whenever possible) or shooting them in the pack when I had to.

At both events there were instances where players I shot claimed to see me come onto the field through a central “exit-only” opening, or that I had my barrel sock on before I shot them, or some other blatant lie. They would vocally insist they had actually witnessed these things. That they had definitely seen them! I would deny it and explain that the way I was raised (by a man who valued honor) the words liar, cheat, or thief are the worst names you can call an honorable man, and that they should choose their words more carefully. I would also try to explain what had happened, how it had happened, and how they can prevent it from happening in the future. In other words, I would explain to them how to shoot me next time I’m doing it.

But, alas, I digress…

The point of this post is to find out how you would feel about a rule that reinforces the type of behavior that, I think, we all want to encourage at this type of event.

I am considering adding this short, simple paragraph to the rules, and mentioning it in orientation;

In days gone by honor was the most important thing a man had. Being known as a man of honor was paramount to many, and any comments about a man’s lack of honor were met with anger, resentment, and sometimes action. In the present day honor has come to have less value to many, and comments about another’s honor seem to flow easily and without thought. The players at Viper Paintball events do not, and will not, accept such reckless behavior. Therefore, the use of the words “cheater”, “cheating”, or any other variants of the word “cheat” will earn you an immediate judge punch if there is a judge present, and may get you escorted to a judge by a “Player Ref” (our version of undercover cops) for a judge punch. If you feel someone has intentionally violated the rules please bring it to the attention of a field judge or the event director.

I didn’t create a poll because I don’t just want yes or no input. I would really like to hear what you guys think. This is a bold move, but one I feel is worthwhile. This is your house…if you agree I want to know, as it states in the paragraph above that you feel this way. If you feel it is unnecessary, unfair, over-the-top, or whatever, and we don’t need it, I want to hear that, too.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

V

Anyway, that was my outlook after those instances at other fields (neither were SGOT). I never ended up adding that to the Viper Scenario Rules but, then again, it doesn't seem we need them at mine....just some other fields/events where this sort of thing isn't frowned upon.

He's an example of how, in my opinion, players should conduct themselves IF they are honorable.

I was playing at a "Duncan's Games" event in Florida a few months ago. The theme was "BAT 21." At the end the final mission, for both sides, was to go and find a downed pilot. I got seperated from the people I was with during a flanking maneuver. We were very determined to get him, as we were the U.S. side and wanted to pull off the rescue.

Next thing I know I am back near the enemy end of the field, alone, and I see a guy in a flight suit and a pilot's helmet. He looks at me and says "Hey, I been lookin for you!" I walk over to plan our retreat out of enemy territory so I can finish the rescue and he pokes me with his pistol and says "Barrel tag. I'm sorry."

My jaw dropped and I just went blank. Turned out they had captured the pilot (who turned out to be Duncan himself). Then they asked him for the helmet and flight suit he was wearing. This guy put it on and went on a barrel-tagging fest. (You think the enemy in a real-life war might do that?)

I turned off my radio, assured him I would say nothing to anyone, and walked away dead, laughing to myself.

Come to find out this was a new player, but had already learned to "think outside the box." Duncan had invited me to say a few words about my events and do some promo during the closing ceremonies so, when I did, I used the time to tell the story and congratulate him on a good move. Then I gave him admission and a case of paint for a future Viper event of his choice, telling him that thinking players make for better games.

I didn't whine to the director of the refs about how he used the props. I didn't make durogatory comments about his honor, his upbringing, or his mother. I didn't talk about the game promoter and how bad it made his game. I didn't even make excuses.

Instead I complimented him on an excellent move, and laughed at myself for falling for it.

Hell, at my last event at my OWN field Josh "Boogyman" f@g@n (funny it filters his last name LOL) of the TX Roughnecks pulled a dead man's walk and shot me up. Yes...on MY OWN field. Yes...at MY OWN event! Did I whine about it. No...I laughed my BUT off and told a few people because it was FUNNY...and it was a GOOD MOVE.

But it seems, for some folks, admitting that someone else outsmarted them is absolutely out of the question. Aparrently their self-image is so fragile that, were they to admit they were outsmarted, their whole psyche' might collapse.

This is a sad state of affairs ladies and gentlemen. The time has come to do a 180 and learn to embrace honor and integrity. To learn to play paintball with your BRAIN as well as your trigger finger. To learn to APPRECIATE the skills of others, not loathe them for them. To learn there is NOTHING wrong with having a "fast one" pulled on you, because they have presented you with a great opportunity to LEARN.

Your brain is a tool for paintball...at LEAST as much so as your gun. Learn to use BOTH, and stop whining about those who have already grown accustomed to doing so.

Someone else can have the sopapbox now. I'm done with it for the time being. ;)


PS: I know Tank was just kidding :D

[htownstr8jackn]

understandable but i thought once shot out the drugs were out of play and this was mentioned via email not out loud which it wasn't. but man they sure did do a nice job on building normandy i loved that addition to the field. It was awesome how the ppl on the out of bounds had a view to the nice fire fights. Way to go on that part of the field sgot

[xscout]

Hey lapdance, thanks for coming on the boards and saying your piece...I appreciate it. I thought the lost barrel move was slick as whale snot on an iceflow, and thats why I shook your hand after the fact. I'll be sure to stop by the sword shop and drop off a mead while my teenager checks out the pigstickers.

All the crying and jumping up and down, cheating, the whole "ghillie suit" fiasco, and the entire CF at the end isn't anyone's fault but the fields organization.

The Rebels and Cartel players, with a few exceptions, were great sports and fun to play against. Likewise the UN and Colombian sides were, for the most part, standup players.

The point count wasn't changed by any of the "gray area" play, the points were re counted to reflect the sneaking of the "cocaine packets" through the out of bounds zone...which was clearly pointed out to the field as the weak link in their plan to use the transportation of "drugs" as an aspect of the game. Is sneaking through out of bounds areas cheating, or playing the "gray area"? Apparently, in this case, it was designated as cheating and the points earned were tossed out.

Took them a while, but once that was cleared up, the winner was declared.

I had fun, and one aspect of the day was pleasant...I didn't hear the usual complaining about either team being wipers.

[MikeSmith]

The point count wasn't changed by any of the "gray area" play, the points were re counted to reflect the sneaking of the "cocaine packets" through the out of bounds zone...which was clearly pointed out to the field as the weak link in their plan to use the transportation of "drugs" as an aspect of the game. Is sneaking through out of bounds areas cheating, or playing the "gray area"? Apparently, in this case, it was designated as cheating and the points earned were tossed out.


The last score I heard was from Larry and it was 660 for the Drug Cartel & Rebels and 400 for the UN & Colombians.

How was that changed?

What drugs were "snuck" across the street illegally?

I'm assuming, based on your post, that you know the answers. If I'm wrong, then I would hope one of Larry's refs could explain it to me.

Thanks.

[xscout]

Sure, Larry called both Robert Duhon and Brent (UN Co-commanders) around midnight Sunday night (16th).
I'll get one of them over here to tell you what they told me ASAP.

[Duhon_robert]

ok let me explain a few things!

Thunderstruck did a great job fooling the judges there! It was the refs bad for saying Lap dance was out while he was looking for the " barrel"!

Larry Called me and Brent right after the game and informed us that SGOT and its managment Apologized for any confusion and that The un did win the Scenario! Larry Stated " the refs said Both the cartel and rebels were not able to move at all The Bpa/DWA/Opfor Boys Had both sides of the Field Completely locked down!" He continued to Say " We caught 3 people transporting Drugs across the street"! He then apologized again!

So for the confusion on who won The Un and CG did win 100% Successful!

Now As for TB's comment on another forum! As i told you before You want some Come Get some!
I promise we will come to a viper event to go against the TB and thunderstruck! You wont know when but we will do it! Just play a straight up game and not "bend the Rules"!
I enjoy the sport and will continue to play the sport! Bpa/Opfor/DWA has brought a Great thing to the Arena of scenario paintball in TEXAS!

Now back to the scenario event! LAW and DAVID Cantu both of youll are stand up players and I will play against youll again! Great game to both of you and all of your crews! Youll put up one great fight!

Viper and mike smith neither of youll were at the game! I have read your comments! Your thoughts may be just a little bit off!
The generals for the Cartel and Rebels are both aware of the cheating that did take place by the drugs being passed on insertion points! They are also aware of Larry Cedillo Decision on the Scenario!
Larry told me he called all Generals and informed us all of the situation!

I am looking forward to the next scenario march 22nd in Harwood tx and then Tank You will have the bpa/opfor/dwa running with you in May! It will be an honor once again to fight beside the great Tank!

[Ruler of all the world]

That's scenario ball baby, Keep your eyes up and your brain open........

[Viper Paintball]

Viper and mike smith neither of youll were at the game! I have read your comments! Your thoughts may be just a little bit off!


No...they weren't.

I am making no comments/observations on the event, as I wasn't there.

I tried to make it clear I wasn't talking about anything having to do with the field, or the event itself.

However, by the sounds of things on the other thread, as well as what was said here, there are alot of players, at this event and others, whose response to being outplayed and outsmarted is to start screaming "cheater!" Back in my younger days throwing the words cheater, liar, or thief at me woulda got you a pop in the nose. I am alot calmer and more restrained these days. ;)

But so far, outside this forum and within it, I have heard stories about a girl getting a string of up-close bonus balls to be followed by the comment "that's what you get for being a girl!" as well as Liam's story about the angry guy demanding a chance to shoot him, point blank, in the back of the head "execution style" after Liam had already called himself out. A good frined of mine was with me at another field in Texas (and he is one of the nicest, most standup guys I know) and deadman walked a group with me. When we shot them they turned and called him a "fat cheating f**k!"

I have major issues with those sort of reactions to being outplayed. I'm no paintball god. I get outplayed. I fall for things occassionally. I DO NOT react the way these clowns do, nor do I find that acceptable.

Unless players, field owners, and event directors take a FIRM stand on these sort of behaviors they will continue... and get worse. What's more, young players will see it and think "that's just how the game is played." I refuse to even play in one particular entire state out east because it has become rife with this due to the fact that the older players do it, the new guys feel they have to run their mouths to be like the others. Their mouths are all wired to their triggers, and they spew abusive explitives as fast as paintballs. I'm no saint, and I could stand to clean up my mouth in personal life, but these guys in the state I'm referring to are just WAY over the top.

Another far more important issue is the verbal outbursts are the next step in the escalation to physical violence. That is even MORE unacceptable.

So everyone out there who just ignores their fellow players' mouths and allows this, by their inaction, approves of it.

If you witness behavior you think is unacceptable from a ref, teammate, or opposing player, the thing to do is to walk away and avoid an escalated altercation. But don't just walk away and forget it...walk away to your team captain, or the event director, or someone with authority to say something to them and let them know that their behavior is unacceptable, and won't be tolerated at their field/events.

Say nothing and you are part of the problem. (Not directed at anyone in particular)

[MikeSmith]

I was there, Robert. In fact you shot me with your last 3 balls in the first hut, while I was completely out of paint.{smooth move, by the way!}

And if the refs caught 3 people transporting packages across the road, AND they did it illegally, why wasn't that addressed immediately? Why wasn't it resolved before the game was over? Sorry, your explanation seems to have holes in it.

According to your explanation "the refs said Both the cartel and rebels were not able to move at all The Bpa/DWA/Opfor Boys Had both sides of the Field Completely locked down!" That is simply not true. A group of us completely traversed the entire field mid-day, without much of a confrontation & numerous times we were able to get people over to the Cartel's side.

Besides, the game wasn't about who kept who bottled up, it was about who won the most points. And at the end of the game, that was the Rebels & the Drug Cartel. {660 to 400}

If the rules changed after the game was over, then I can understand why you were told you won.

[htownstr8jackn]

Man today is the 19th 3 days past the event. And we are still at it hahaha. This is awesome I think this all came down to management not any of the teams. Rules were never set in stone from get go. Refs which were the young ones didnt know boundaries nor what were kill zones. Some of the refs were freaking awesome i give you guys props. But if knowing the illegal stuff happen the MANAGEMENT should've bought this up asap or at the ending of the game.

[xscout]

If you witness behavior you think is unacceptable from a ref, teammate, or opposing player, the thing to do is to walk away and avoid an escalated altercation. But don't just walk away and forget it...walk away to your team captain, or the event director, or someone with authority to say something to them and let them know that their behavior is unacceptable, and won't be tolerated at their field/events.

Say nothing and you are part of the problem. (Not directed at anyone in particular)

/sign
Hence the two threads and and SGOT most likely seeing less people at the next scenario game they put on. I have to say this certainly gives traction to the idea that professional producers and their games are better venues than local fields with their less experienced staff and "on the fly" rules. Keeping silent when irregularities and potentially confrontational behavior like cheating occurs doesn't do anyone any favors.

[THE-TB]

Let's see if this thread is going to get locked as well.

ok let me explain a few things!

Thunderstruck did a great job fooling the judges there! It was the refs bad for saying Lap dance was out while he was looking for the " barrel"!

It wasn't fooling the judges, robert. The judges approved the moves, the judges were following the player. It was fooling the players, and then it wasn't even fooling them. They just didn't care to ask or find out. They got tunnel visioned and assumed that the player was not only not a threat but was an uncombatant and should be ignored. That is your fault as a commander and there fault as players, not the person who pulled the move with the full approval of the judges. Don't blame them because you and your players chose a different path that let you get out played.

Larry Called me and Brent right after the game and informed us that SGOT and its managment Apologized for any confusion and that The un did win the Scenario! Larry Stated " the refs said Both the cartel and rebels were not able to move at all The Bpa/DWA/Opfor Boys Had both sides of the Field Completely locked down!" He continued to Say " We caught 3 people transporting Drugs across the street"! He then apologized again!

Personally, if it went down like that, then the owner needs to get on here and say that. As now it just appears to be telling both sides that they did the right thing in an attempt to keep business. and make people feel good. And who cares how much real estate you kept, in a scenario game real estate equates to nothing about points, and regardless of your comments to Jud, point do indeed win the game not territory. In fact it is that feeling that we own 70% of the field how did we lose that starts the whining to begin with. There are no points for owning real estate.

So for the confusion on who won The Un and CG did win 100% Successful!

Again the promoter or field owner needs to get on here and state why. Because changing the rules after the fact is not the right thing to do. And if they do that, you still don't get to label the person on the other side of the ruling a cheater. That is the point you are missing. Just because 3 days after the game, a ruling is made to appease people doesn't mean the people on the other side cheated. They were simply out manuevered in the rules lawyering. Which obviously went on with your side. I mean how many times was it posted that player A, B or C talked with the game director about this rule or that rule or what might happen if X happens before the game. But I guess that is ok behaviour right? Not using the rules to your benefit? Yeah, I thought so.

Now As for TB's comment on another forum! As i told you before You want some Come Get some!

Dude, I have already went and got some and you know what? It wasn't that good. You got beat at tactical, and you got beat at SGOT (regardless of the ruling you got out smarted and beat). So the way I see it, we have ventured to your neck of the woods twice and twice you came out on the short end of the stick. I have nothing to prove to you or your 'elite' woodsball and mil-sim players. Since as I tell people all the time, I have more personal awards then all the teams that make up your alliance and the players on them, combined! I gave you the chance to come command against me at a Viper game and even RTS where this is little to no grey area and you refused. No you would rather hunt bin laden or play this little 8 hour games in your little fish bowl. I travel this country playing games, as does my team, you little 8 hour games are really not worth the money.

I promise we will come to a viper event to go against the TB and thunderstruck! You wont know when but we will do it! Just play a straight up game and not "bend the Rules"!

Not bend the rules? Whatever dude, as a team we won 31 awards last year (just last year) and you think it was all bending the rules as you put it? No I am sorry, it was one of the myraid of other excuses I hear all the time. We have night vision, radios, faster guns, more paint, blah blah blah. How about this? We took it more seriously and we just outplayed you. And guess what? We did it with a team that is spread across 6 states who dont practice, who don't subscribe to mil-sim and who don't pretend to be in the Army. But we won't know when you show up? Why not? Again, bring your teams, I will command one side with my scenario players and you command the other with your mil-sim and 'kick ***' players you claim to have. And at the end of the game when you butt is so sore that you cannot walk, you can find something to complain about since NONE of you seem to be able to take a loss and just move the hell on. And I am sure that you will find some excuse that time as well. As for chasing you? Yeah, sorry, you aren't that big a fish to me. I have more games in the box commanding then you have played. Well real scenario games anyways, I am sure your brigade page is quite overflowing. Maybe you can get with Ed Mentz and be a special ops rockstar next year.

I enjoy the sport and will continue to play the sport! Bpa/Opfor/DWA has brought a Great thing to the Arena of scenario paintball in TEXAS!

You have? What? Scenario Paintball has been in Texas since like 1996 and you have been here what 2 years? And you have yet to play the major promoter in Texas, much less command at it? So you sell that stufff to someone else as the real players know better.

Now back to the scenario event! LAW and DAVID Cantu both of youll are stand up players and I will play against youll again! Great game to both of you and all of your crews! Youll put up one great fight!

Now that you have been 'awarded' the win, your comments seem rather hollow Robert. Where were you before all this happened? That's right, trying to get point taken away and challenging the total. I wonder, did the words if this is how it is going to be then me and my X number of players won't be back at your games ever came out of your mouth?

Viper and mike smith neither of youll were at the game! I have read your comments! Your thoughts may be just a little bit off!

As you have no doubt read Mike Smith was at the game. However regardless of whether Viper or I were at the game or not, we have talked with a lot of people who were. And these games arent that much different from game to game. It seems even more so these days that the whiners and such are getting worse and worse. So whatever dude!

The generals for the Cartel and Rebels are both aware of the cheating that did take place by the drugs being passed on insertion points! They are also aware of Larry Cedillo Decision on the Scenario!
Larry told me he called all Generals and informed us all of the situation!

So the field owner over ruled the producer? LMAO, well ther eyou go. And there you go again with that cheating word. Was it against the rules? If it wasn't then it isn't cheating. How many times do I have to say just becuase you wouldn't do it, didn't think of it or anything else doesnt give you the right to call people cheaters. Stop it!

I am looking forward to the next scenario march 22nd in Harwood tx and then Tank You will have the bpa/opfor/dwa running with you in May! It will be an honor once again to fight beside the great Tank!

I am sure you are, however I can forsee something in your future there as well. It's called a loss, and you keep on with your way of thinking, it will become a consistent trait for you; losing and then whining about it.

So you want to call me out Robert, bring it. You know where I am, you know the games I play. I am not going to dance with you anymore about this. I gave you choice of sides, I gave you choice of bases, and I even told you had you brought a large number of players Viper might work something to make the travel a little less painful for all your guys and yet nothing. You would rather go play 8 hour games at fields who have no idea how to run a scenario game. I wonder, is it so you have the ability to bend rules or hide behind their newness and in-experience running games so you don't have those excuses when you got destroyed in a real scenario? I wonder!

[THE-TB]

/sign
Hence the two threads and and SGOT most likely seeing less people at the next scenario game they put on. I have to say this certainly gives traction to the idea that professional producers and their games are better venues than local fields with their less experienced staff and "on the fly" rules. Keeping silent when irregularities and potentially confrontational behavior like cheating occurs doesn't do anyone any favors.


Cheating is defined as: to violate rules or regulations. If you cannot show me that, then please find another word. Otherwise, maybe we need to look at others behaviour and start labeling them as cheaters.

[Tank]

Cheating is defined as: to violate rules or regulations. If you cannot show me that, then please find another word. Otherwise, maybe we need to look at others behaviour and start labeling them as cheaters.


Rule bender may be more to the liking? lol!!!!! I have not seen anything to say that actual cheating went on? I feel that some shananagins went on and some people are unhappy on having the camo pulled over their eyes.


PAINTBALL GAME is what it is called last time I looked. Have fun and play.


This is better than tournament ball griping. I have been entertained by this.


Happy Easter.....

[Metal Cowboy]

For what it is worth. Please do not close this thread. This is good discussion that needs to be had.

Now, Viper and TB, I've never hard the honor of meeting you.

I understand that the barrel hunt was not technically a rule violation. However, I personally find it to be unethical.

Why do I say this?

First, when a player is out he holds his marker above his head with the barrel sock attached to the end of the barrel. This player would be unable to do this. Now, if I assume that he is live because I don't see his marker over his head and I lite him up I run the risk of: a) verbal/physical confrontation because he is truly dead/looking for a barrel b) i find out he's alive and then proceed to "kill" him c) run the risk of being terminated from the scenario for excessive "force" (if that's the correct term) or d) run the risk of getting "killed" myself by said barrel searcher.

Now, I never saw said player walking around, but if I would have I would have asked him what he was doing. If he responded to me that he was looking for his barrel, I would probably have helped him look . . . after all it's a game and honor, dignity and sportsmanship are paramount, right?

This makes me think of the crisis in baseball . . . Steroids and HGH. They weren't against the rules in MLB so we should all look at Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, et al and respect them for the way they played the game. With honor, dignity and sportsmanship . . . right?

Lastly, anyone that compares the game/sport of paintball with any sort of military action is falling well short of the mark. Paintball is a game/sport. War is not. Please do not make this comparison anymore . . . unless of course you've found a way for our fallen soldiers to reinsert.

Cheers

[shadowjin]

If I saw a player pulling that stunt I would've just barrel tagged the suspicious guy just to be safe. If he's already dead then no harm done but if he was alive and doing a dead man's walk then he would have had to call himself out.

[THE-TB]

I understand that the barrel hunt was not technically a rule violation. However, I personally find it to be unethical.

Unethical? Let's define that shall we?

Unethical: Not Ethical
Ethics: the rules of conduct recognized in respect to a particular class of human actions or a particular group, culture, etc

So again we are at rules and defining rules and violation of defined rules.

What you are saying is subjective. YOU do not think it is ethical, moreso because you were on the receiveing end of this. Here it is in a nutshell, I should charge you guys for telling you this for the 100th time.

Dead men have no problem telling you that they are dead. Being dead by almsot every rule set out there is defined as assuming the posture of a dead player. That means barrel sock on, or hand up, or gun up. If a person is walking by me who is not wearing any ABT or the enemy ABT and I am not sure of their stance in the game, I will simply ask. If I get anything other then yes I am dead, then I either shoot them or barrel tag them. Just that simple little act solves this problem. All the blow hards and whiny babies and their you can't do that excuses don't relaize how easy it is to do this. And guess what Dead Man walks have been going since the sport was invented.


First, when a player is out he holds his marker above his head with the barrel sock attached to the end of the barrel. This player would be unable to do this. Now, if I assume that he is live because I don't see his marker over his head and I lite him up I run the risk of: a) verbal/physical confrontation because he is truly dead/looking for a barrel b) i find out he's alive and then proceed to "kill" him c) run the risk of being terminated from the scenario for excessive "force" (if that's the correct term) or d) run the risk of getting "killed" myself by said barrel searcher.

How many scenario games have you played? Seriously, like real scenario games? Because all of your concerns are without precedent and unfounded at best and simply off the chart at worse.

Now, I never saw said player walking around, but if I would have I would have asked him what he was doing. If he responded to me that he was looking for his barrel, I would probably have helped him look . . . after all it's a game and honor, dignity and sportsmanship are paramount, right?

And that would have been great right up until the person BT'd or shot you. And honor, dignity and sportsmanship have nothing to do with it. Since again those are subjective words based on your perception of something.

Do I really need to explain gamesmanship vs sportsmanship? And if you think people screaming cheater is good sportsmanship or arguing about points or countering rules lawerying by doing the same is good sportsmanship, you need to re-examine your definitions.

This makes me think of the crisis in baseball . . . Steroids and HGH. They weren't against the rules in MLB so we should all look at Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, et al and respect them for the way they played the game. With honor, dignity and sportsmanship . . . right?

Actually taking drugs is against the rules, hence the investigation by congress. But there you go again with those words, do you really understand what they mean? And scenario paintball isn't baseball, so your comparison doesn't really hold up. Or do I have to not use my night vision, radios, electronic markers, better goggles, higher grade paint, no camo, no packs, no pods, I mean the 'fairness' can go on and on and on.

Lastly, anyone that compares the game/sport of paintball with any sort of military action is falling well short of the mark. Paintball is a game/sport. War is not. Please do not make this comparison anymore . . . unless of course you've found a way for our fallen soldiers to reinsert.

Cheers

That's funny, the biggest complainers are mil-fun players who think that they are in the Army and that this is being run like a movie.

[Lapdance]

If I saw a player pulling that stunt I would've just barrel tagged the suspicious guy just to be safe. If he's already dead then no harm done but if he was alive and doing a dead man's walk then he would have had to call himself out.

This is the exact advice i gave to the new people who were talking to me after the game, when Robert Duhon walked up and sat in on the discussion. I told them you can be very polite and barrel tag them and then offer to help them look for their lost barrel. If a person is not carrying any kind of weapon on their body this is the way to eliminate them without any of the things that Metal Cowboy refered to happening :eek:

I am just gonna take this bottle of glue off the table here.. You obviously wont be eating from it, shadowjin :D

[Viper Paintball]

Or put another way:

What if someone asked him?!?!?! Did no one think of that?

"Hey buddy! Are you out?"

"I'm looking for my barrel."

"But are you out?"

"Um...I...um..."

If he says "yes" ask him, politely, to put his hand above his head and call himself out. At that point he can legally do NOTHING to effect the game. Help him look for his barrel if you like.

If he says "No" or otherwise dodges the question, do the reasonable thing; put one ball in his chest. If he was still in he now needs to walk off. If he was out, and complains, he should have said he was out.

Pretty simple. However, the compaisons to actual war are going to come. It's the crutch of the pacifists that don't like paintball. But we shoot a gun, with a trigger, a breech, a bolt, and a barrel. We throw grenades and use rocket launchers. People bring tanks. We simulate C4 exposives, and even medics healing wounded and sending them back into "battle."

In the end we simulate battle. However, we need to keep respect in mind when events are based on real life such as WWII battles and other historical conflicts.

But I will say, on behalf of Viper Enterprises, that we will never dumb down our events so that people can leave their brains at home and just stumble through pulling the trigger all weekend. Our events will ALWAYS require thought, problem solving, and the necessity to think through what you are doing, not just shoot anyone with the wrong armband.

Even in the military aspect and running missions, if your job is to get to the other base and snipe in order to accomplish your mission and get your points, you may run accross an enemy patrol. Vastly outnumbered, YOU have to THINK about it and DECIDE to let them pass in the interest of getting your mission completed. But, just as you make the decision, you notice they are carrying a supply drop. Your commander has told everyone that he is DESPERATE to get more supplies. Again...decisions decisions. SHould you engage and try and get the supplies? Is it worth risking yoru mission? What if you try to get the supplies, get shot out, AND can't do your mission. Will the commander understand, or will he be upset. Decisions decisions.

These games require thought. Mine always will. Those who just want to shoot the bad guys, don't want to think, want everyone to be marked with big colorful thing on their gun and body that everyone can clearly see (so they know who they are supposed to shoot without having to think)...those folks might enjoy other events more than mine.

But if you are looking for an exciting, interesting, challenging time....where the game director doesn't screw with things to help the losers win...I'll be here.

[xscout]

Cheating is defined as: to violate rules or regulations. If you cannot show me that, then please find another word. Otherwise, maybe we need to look at others behaviour and start labeling them as cheaters.

" We caught 3 people transporting Drugs across the street"
The goal was to move packages simulating drugs from one side of the field to the other. Three players were caught transporting drugs across the street, between the two reinserts...all of 20' apart. The field is set up like a horseshoe...see my illustration below.

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/2048/transportjm5.jpg

The Blue route is of course just an approximation of what the path would have been, while the red route is the path that apparently 3 accused players took in moving the packets from one HQ to another...through the road to the entrance of the park...a no mask area, in essence the parkinglot...not in bounds by any mental gymnastics.

Now I absolutely don't believe that everyone on the Cartel/Rebel side was "in on this", because I don't believe that any of the players I met on that side would do that...I have nothing but my gut feeling from meeting people, shaking their hands and looking them in the eyes. Not very scientific, but enough for me. But a few bad apples? Yea, that doesn't require much of a leap of faith. Especially when it was setup so easily to be abused...like 20', with everyone (rebel/cartel)wearing the same arm band tape? I'm surprised it was only 3 bad apples.

Now if there was someone on the UN\Colombian side pulling a stunt like that, I'd sure like to hear about it. And for what it's worth, I think that any of the folks that have bothered to come here and post about the games final result weren't involved either...I don't think they would bother posting their indignation if they were in on it, but I'm not the shadow, I don't know the evil that lurks in the hearts of men.

So by saying "cheater" I'm not throwing that around with out what I consider a good reason.

[THE-TB]

Show me in the rules where it deals with dealing props, dropping them or what have you. Again I understand what you are saying and you are screaming it isnt fair. But to label people a cheater when they didn't break the rules is laughable. You look like a whiner, just that simple.

Please feel free to post the rule that says you can't do that? Plus if you see what the situation was, from what was posted here. The players were given the drugs, on their way to the base they were shot out. No one took the props and no one searched their bodies to get the props. They had to insert on their side of the field. There was no rules violations, you got out done by a loophole that wasn't perceived or even acted upon with malice, so again your 'cheater' label is a little harsh. You try to make is sound like they did nothing but run drugs through the insertion trail.

Again why wasn't this addressed at the game before stand down? Why are you crying about it now on forums? Or protesting the score? Or counter-rules lawerying?

You say that there were all these concerns before the game, did you not have a player orientation? Why didnt you ask these questions then for all to hear? Why didnt you ask the refs at the game? Why didnt you go to the promter and voice those concerns when the game got underway? See where I am going with this?

If you are so standup and above reproach why didn't you do the stand up thing and help out your fellow scenario players? Why didn't YOU make sure everyone else understood the rules, or the grey areas you were concerned with. So since you failed to do so, yet you state your whole command side was concerned, that would be omission wouldn't it? That would give you the exucses you are using now if you lost, and more of a reason to crow if you won.

So 'technically' you could also be labeled unethical or even a 'cheater' by your own definitions.

[Viper Paintball]

I think the issue here may be someone looking at "spirit of the game" as some unwritten set of rules.

The "rules" are the "rules" plain and simple, and violating them is, indeed, cheating.

However, violating someone's opinion of the "spirit of the game" is a far different issue...if it's even really an "issue" at all to anyone but the person feeling "violated."

[xscout]

Well good, then we are on the same sheet of music...as our concerns specifically regarding the drug transporting were addressed to the owner and the head ref, and we were assured that the Refs had been notified to keep an eye on it, and that it was and remains, against the rules to transport the items through the out of bounds area illustrated so clearly by the graphic provided.

As has been reinforced by the owners decision to use the term "caught", which can be construed as apprehension or interruption of an action deemed actionable.

Ergo, there was no loop hole to be manipulated, as it was a clear violation of the rules...now it can be argued that the culprits that cheated did not know they were cheating, but by not getting clarification from their commander they were acting of their own accord...which does allow the plausible denial option for the commanders in question, as they may maintain that they had no foreknowledge of the act...which does lead one to question their being responsible for their team, and their being ignorant of the rules of the field.

Why didn't the Rebels and Cartel members get clarification of where out of bounds was? They were provided with the same maps I was, which I presented here...

And as you will see from previous posts I made the above map available, online and free for all that chose to seek the information, truly an altruistic motive that belays your unfounded accusation of "cheating"...as "cheating" is defined by Websters online dictionary as :

cheat


transitive verb
1: to deprive of something valuable by the use of deceit or fraud
2: to influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice
3: to elude or thwart by or as if by outwitting <cheat death>intransitive verb

1 a: to practice fraud or trickery
b: to violate rules dishonestly <cheat at cards> <cheating on a test>
2: to be sexually unfaithful —usually used with on<was cheating on his wife>
3: to position oneself defensively near a particular area in anticipation of a play in that area <the shortstop was cheating toward second base>

A better argument would be that the Rebels and Cartel were "roleplaying", and that they were only playing "in character", instead of defending the cheating, actually try to incorporate it into the excuse.

More elegant.

Now roll a d20 ;)

[THE-TB]

Give me a break, again show me the rules. Print it out, post a link, something. Because all I see is that you need some cheese to go with your whine.

role playing, I hear you. Dont you have someone dressed up like bin laden to go find in your Army ACU's? Then again maybe you should use your A-5 made up to look like an M-16 or any other 'real gun' that you have.

So roll your own D-20 or go find some new tactics on Special OPs because your OPFOR team name is making me laugh.

You can post your definitions of cheating and fine we can play that way. So I guess I can go ahead and call you a cheater as well. Since your players entered defined insertion points against the rules and then got mad when they were made to leave. And you were part of the command staff right? Your players who were also out of bounds? Oe were shooting hot? Or wiped the hits? Or argued what was a head or torso shot vs not? Should I go on? You whole side was rife with cheaters led obviously by several at the top.

How does that feel?

[xscout]

When I get back from vacation in Louisiana, I'll scan you a copy of the rule sheet. They were being handed out at the game, I'm sure someone you know has one, but I'll help you out.

So why the personal attacks?

[THE-TB]

Calling someone a cheater is a personal attack now? Or me calling out your wearing ACU's? yet you attack role players here and elsewhere and call other people cheater's and it's ok?

Again I guess it is perception since my last post mere mirrored your comments just directed back to you.

Guess the answer to my question is that you don't like it very much.

[xscout]

Between you and me, I think the ACU's are the biggest mistake the Army has made in a while...they seem to work pretty well in the pics I've seen in Afghanistan, and when they are dusty, they seem "ok" in Iraq, but in any kind of wooded environment, they stand out like a turd in a punchbowl.

But no, that doesn't hurt my feelings.
Especially since I don't wear them...but if you want to make fun of me wearing imitation MARPAT MCCUUs, be my guest. I think the Marines got that right.

I don't own an A5, but I do own a custom98...but I think that bolting anything on to it that is there for "looks" is silly, but people put racing stripes on Hondas, so whatever.

About the only good tactics I have read on specialops is keeping hydrated, which is good advice wherever you read it.

So that leaves making fun of OPFOR...which is fine. You have mentioned your being prior service, so the concept is one you are familiar with. I served in a unit attached to JRTC OPFOR for most of my short career in the Army. I served as a Cavalry Scout...so I guess you can make horsey jokes next.

And I've already covered the "cheater" thing...but feel free to throw it around, it's about the only thing left that might get a rise out of me. But unless you know one of the three folks that were carrying the bundles of coke through the parking lot, I don't understand where you are coming from.

So, again...why the personal attacks?

*edit*
Well I see that you are offline, good idea. I'll call you when I get back and we'll hash it out over the phone.
Have a good Easter!
*/edit*

[woodrow-p]

Well, I've been at the lake for a few days and I've been trying to catch up on this thread. First of all, I apologize to anyone who may have been offended by what I wrote about the "gray area players". I guess you can mark that up to my inexperience playing in these events. This is my third event ever and if these things are OK then this is a lesson learned and IF I ever play in a Viper or other event, I will remember these things. I don't agree with it, but if it's common place then so be it.

I'm going to skip the chest beating and cut straight to the problems I had in this event which was the reason for my "whining". When I first read the rules for this contest, I knew there were many ambiguities that needed a clear definition. I point blank asked Larry how the packets were supposed to be delivered and he told me they were to be carried by the Cartel members around the field to Western Town. I even ask if they would be able to be delivered via respawn OR by a player other than the Cartel and he said no. Naturally, when I saw something different, I ask him WTF? He had no answer. Also, with the zip line. Our mission was to disable it before all the packets of cocaine were sent across. He told me that there would only be 10 packets and that they could only be sent across 1 at a time. When the hour started for us to disable it, they sent all 10 across at the same time. Again, I ask Larry WTF? Before the final battle, Enigma1 met with all the generals and explained that, since there was so much confusion about the missions and the drugs and how they were supposed to be delivered that they were going to have a bucket with 20 keys of coc that had to be delivered to WT thru the field and that who won or lost was going to be determined by who won this last mission. If the Cartel delivered the bucket with all 20 packets they won, if they didn't, we won. Well, they didn't accomplish it. But, when they annouced the winner at the end, they announced them the winner. Again, I asked Larry WTF?

Sooo... I guess you can call me the whiner. It's cool, I really could give a **** what some of you think of me anyway. But, don't tell me one thing then do another because I will call your *** out.

The problem in my eyes was the management in this game. I do not think they prepared well for this nor did they even come close to informing their refs of the missions or how they were to be accomplished. It was a total cluster f.

As for the dead man walk, I didn't even know about it until the game was over. I do not think it made a difference one way or the other. Again, I don't agree with it, but if that's the way it's played then that's how it's done.

I also do not blame any of this on the generals on the other side. They to were obviously not told the same rules that I was and if I were in their shoes would have probably done the same thing.

[Duhon_robert]

ok people there seems to be some major confusion here!

TB you need to understand the whole story before you run your mouth!!

Lapdance was being excorted by a ref and was asked if he was out and both times the ref said YES he is out and looking for a lost barrel! So to answer that question there is your answer!~

Now as for the generals I told them at the game Win lose or draw it doesnt matter to me! I play for the fun of the sport! Its people like you TB who arent allowed on very many fields Nation wide because of crap you start! You have never started anything with me personally nor have i had any run ins with Thunderstruck! For the most part i think thunderstruck plays a good game of paintball they do play in the GREY Area at times! LapDance and Jud both were at the game both are cool peoples! it is ashame what happened with jud at the game and the fact he is not allowed back at SGOT! I enjoyed the game wether we won or lost it doesnt matter!
The Fact is Larry Cedillo the Owner of Sgot also the Promoter of this scenario as he promotes his own scenarios is that one who called me on this I didnt call him!

Now TB You have never i do mean never played me or my team! yes 2 of your boys have played me! Yes i had the privelage to play against thunderstruck at gears of war 2007! Youll out smarted the judges at Tactical with the fake mission card, just as Lapdance out smarted players and refs alike at SGOT! is it Cheating NO! Is it playing in the GREY area YES!

TB you and I have talked in detail via email and pm before about scenario events! As I promised We will go to a viper event! You have my word on that!Viper When we come Please put us on opposite team from thunderstruck! I want the oppurtunity to play against " The best Scenario players in the US"! win lose or Draw It will be a fun game and we will drink a beer when its all over!

Most of us here are all Grown men! We do this for fun not to start alot of crap!

Now as for myself TB I have been playing woodsball/Scenario paintball for the last 6 yrs bro! Yeah the last 2 years we have really grown in our games!

TB now as for thunderstruck members youll are always welcome at my field in Anahuac Tx! If youll should choose to come down and play some REAL Woodsball please let me know ahead of time so we can get some Bar B que cooked and such!

[THE-TB]

I was the XO at Gears of War.

Neither I nor my team had anything to do with a fake mission card.

The few fields that I am not allowed at have nothing to do with me playing the grey area, my conduct on the field or 'starting crap' as you put but the politics of players and their whining.

You have not played against my team (you played against 2 in Houston and 8 in Harwood), sir so give me a break before you start talking as an expert on us.

I dont want you on the other side, I want you commanding. See because I know of the smack and such you have talked about me and my team. And well I want to rub your face in the thrashing you would receive and to listen to the whining that would come with your loss.

As for understanding the whole story before running my mouth, I have more of the story then I need. So I am good.

Congrats on your win, however I would fail to call it the 'domination' that you placed on Tactical's forums, I would think that at the most this was a hollow victory rather then a 'domination'.

[Duhon_robert]

You are correct sir You were xo and as i stated in a post about that game You and Viper did a great job! You may want to read back! I stated " Youll played a great game and youll won" Youll Came out and youll did the job that needed to be done"

As far as the fake mission card I am not sure who is responsible for it but the XO and the General had to know about it!

You want me to command against you because you have an issue finding someone willing to command against you! Will I be willing to Command against TB??? You Got your answer already! WE will be at a viper event soon!

You are 100% correct on this thing about the hollow victory which pisses me off to no end! I dont like to win like that!! Either we won or we loss! What you state atfter the final battle is the way it is!

[shadowjin]

Chuck a.k.a. Running Man is the one that pulled that SAM card.

Off topic here but Robert, can you please not type in all exclamation points? It's just as bad as typing in all caps and it makes it look like you're yelling all the time. Thanks for helping me with my tent at Gears of War BTW. :cool:

I'll be at T-Rev but whenever you're down for playing a Viper event, let me know.

[Viper Paintball]

I've had enough Robert. You do NOT know me well enough, or have enough years logged, to take that attitude when referring to me. You've been playing for six years? I was at the first paintball scenario. I was part of the team that put it on. I was running events with over 700 players when you played your first game. Have you ever even been to a major scenario?

The man who did that was Chuck Noe. His team is Outlaw Crew, although he is the only one who plays these days. He's in his sixties, and is known for his hijinx.

But I did NOT know about his fake SAM MISSILE card, and neither did TB. It was not part of some elaborate plan. It was just one of his plays. It was NOT a mission card, and neither he, nor we, got ANY points for it.

Do NOT imply that I have cheated, or will cheat. I have already made it clear how I take that, and what I think of it. I can give you a list of players and industry folks as long as your arm who will vouch for my character, integrity, and honor...both on and off the field. Hell TB can tell you how often, as a professional, I get screwed because I trust people and am often a slave to my ethics.

[MikeSmith]

I understand that the barrel hunt was not technically a rule violation. However, I personally find it to be unethical.

Why do I say this?

First, when a player is out he holds his marker above his head with the barrel sock attached to the end of the barrel. This player would be unable to do this. Now, if I assume that he is live because I don't see his marker over his head and I lite him up I run the risk of: a) verbal/physical confrontation because he is truly dead/looking for a barrel b) i find out he's alive and then proceed to "kill" him c) run the risk of being terminated from the scenario for excessive "force" (if that's the correct term) or d) run the risk of getting "killed" myself by said barrel searcher.
Cheers

I disagree.

It is a player's responsibility to assume the position of a dead player when on the field of play, if he/she is indeed out. If a dead player is not assuming that position, then he/she is opening themselves up to being shot. If his/her gun was not in the air, or he/she was not YELLING "I'm out" or "I'm dead", then he/she is assumed to be a live player.

It is not my responsibility to ASSUME if he/she is out, without seeing a gun in the air or hearing "I'm out" or "I'm dead".

I would have shot him if I was on the UN team.


On edit, I guess I should have read pages 4 & 5 before I posted....

[MikeSmith]

I'm going to skip the chest beating and cut straight to the problems I had in this event which was the reason for my "whining". When I first read the rules for this contest, I knew there were many ambiguities that needed a clear definition. I point blank asked Larry how the packets were supposed to be delivered and he told me they were to be carried by the Cartel members around the field to Western Town. I even ask if they would be able to be delivered via respawn OR by a player other than the Cartel and he said no. Naturally, when I saw something different, I ask him WTF? He had no answer. Also, with the zip line. Our mission was to disable it before all the packets of cocaine were sent across. He told me that there would only be 10 packets and that they could only be sent across 1 at a time. When the hour started for us to disable it, they sent all 10 across at the same time. Again, I ask Larry WTF? Before the final battle, Enigma1 met with all the generals and explained that, since there was so much confusion about the missions and the drugs and how they were supposed to be delivered that they were going to have a bucket with 20 keys of coc that had to be delivered to WT thru the field and that who won or lost was going to be determined by who won this last mission. If the Cartel delivered the bucket with all 20 packets they won, if they didn't, we won. Well, they didn't accomplish it. But, when they annouced the winner at the end, they announced them the winner. Again, I asked Larry WTF?


Now for the reality of the situation. At no point in time did anyone tell the players exactly HOW the packages were to be delivered. It was not in the published rules, nor was it even mentioned at the orientation. At no point in time, during the game, was there ever a clarification about the delivery of the packages.

I was told that the special one-time zip line would include 10 packages only {I asked}, but that was never in the published rules, nor was it mentioned at the orientation.

The 20 packages at the end of the game affected our percentages of packages, despite the fact that we had already moved 37 of the 40 packages to our base, so that would drop our completing percentage from 75% to 50%. This was added into the game to help the UN win.

The package rules were {and I quote}:

Points for the Drug Cartel:
Drug Cartel: Each member of the Drug Cartel will be given a package of cocaine and their objective is to deliver the package to the Rebel Forces.
Each member will be given one package.

Rebel Forces: Aid the Drug Cartel in delivering the packages of cocaine to the Western Town.


On page 2 of this thread, I gave a legitimate scenario for us to "walk" the packages across the parking lot, after we were out. That violated NO rule, either written or spoken before the game, during the game, or at the "prize" give-away. Once the Drug Cartel delivered their individual package to a Rebel Force player, their mission was accomplished. If a Rebel Force player had packages in their possession when they were eliminated, when they re-inserted, they delivered the packages in their possession to the Western Town. At that time, the Rebel Forces mission was accomplished {with the help of the UN or Colombian forces}.

[MikeSmith]

To clarify my above post the Point Break Down for delivery of packages for the Drug Cartel & Rebels was {copied from the published rules}:

lf 25% of the Packages of Cocaine are successfully delivered then you get 50 Points
If 50% of the Packages of Cocaine are successfully delivered then you get 100 Points
If 75% of the Packages of Cocaine are successfully delivered then you get 150 Points
If 100% of the Packages of Cocaine are successfully delivered then you get 200 Points

And the UN & Colombian forces Point Break Down:

If less than 25% of the Packages of Cocaine are successfully delivered then you get 200 points
If less than 50% of the Packages of Cocaine are successfully delivered then you get 150 points
If less than 75% of the Packages of Cocaine are successfully delivered then you get 100 points
If less than 100% of the Packages of Cocaine are successfully delivered then you get 50 points

[woodrow-p]

Now for the reality of the situation. At no point in time did anyone tell the players exactly HOW the packages were to be delivered. It was not in the published rules, nor was it even mentioned at the orientation. At no point in time, during the game, was there ever a clarification about the delivery of the packages.

I was told that the special one-time zip line would include 10 packages only {I asked}, but that was never in the published rules, nor was it mentioned at the orientation.

The 20 packages at the end of the game affected our percentages of packages, despite the fact that we had already moved 37 of the 40 packages to our base, so that would drop our completing percentage from 75% to 50%. This was added into the game to help the UN win.

The package rules were {and I quote}:

Points for the Drug Cartel:
Drug Cartel: Each member of the Drug Cartel will be given a package of cocaine and their objective is to deliver the package to the Rebel Forces.
Each member will be given one package.

Rebel Forces: Aid the Drug Cartel in delivering the packages of cocaine to the Western Town.


On page 2 of this thread, I gave a legitimate scenario for us to "walk" the packages across the parking lot, after we were out. That violated NO rule, either written or spoken before the game, during the game, or at the "prize" give-away. Once the Drug Cartel delivered their individual package to a Rebel Force player, their mission was accomplished. If a Rebel Force player had packages in their possession when they were eliminated, when they re-inserted, they delivered the packages in their possession to the Western Town. At that time, the Rebel Forces mission was accomplished {with the help of the UN or Colombian forces}.

There is no need to go over, again, what happened. I was there, I saw it. As I said before, you guys did exactly what you should have with the info given. The problem is that the info you got, was not the info I got. Yes, we all had the info on the rules, but you know as well as I that those were extremely vague. The problem is that I was told something different before I ever entered my team into this event. Larry knows this and that's why all the switching back and forth is going on. Like someone said earlier, this is a very hallow victory, hell, I don't even consider it a victory. I call it a "make up call".

This whole event and the stuff said here since has really opened my eyes to the world of scenario pball. I've played the game for a while now, but mainly at our fields in Orange. Not real sure if scenario is for me and my crew. What sucks is that I really enjoy the hanging out and meeting new folks etc. that is done. I don't like what the apparent attitude is that the "real" scenario players have towards the guys who wear camo and carry Tippmanns. I guess it's sort of like when I used to play softball all over the country. We used to make fun of the guys who wore blue jean shorts to a softball tournament. Then we got our *** handed to us in the semi-finals of a nationals tourney in Colorado by a team wearing them. Kind of changed my perspective on many things.;)

I would also like to state that I, too, hope this thread doesn't get locked. I have already learned a lot about scenario that I didn't know.

Again, I have no malice toward any one person in this event. I think you guys played a great game (I was going to say fought, but I have now learned there is much more to it than that). The big disconnect to me was with management.

[htownstr8jackn]

How about free muscles relaxers and beers for everyone. Stop yapping at the gums and pick a nice cold beer up. Man we all love the game and if we wear army fatigues or wear jerseys it's all the same with the paint we shoot. What we should do is pop a cap and shotgun a beer. Cause when it comes to war we will have each other back and this is what counts. True love for the game is having a good time and making buddies while at it. Everyone state well you don't know me and i don't know you well, guess what. When and if it came down to it everyone would get along good cause we all have love for the sport of shooting people and not going to jail about it. By the way i love my army marpat hahaha.

[MikeSmith]

There is no need to go over, again, what happened. I was there, I saw it. As I said before, you guys did exactly what you should have with the info given. The problem is that the info you got, was not the info I got. Yes, we all had the info on the rules, but you know as well as I that those were extremely vague. The problem is that I was told something different before I ever entered my team into this event. Larry knows this and that's why all the switching back and forth is going on. Like someone said earlier, this is a very hallow victory, hell, I don't even consider it a victory. I call it a "make up call".


I am in agreement with you.

However, I would suggest you and your team play a real scenario game produced by a national scenario director. You might be pleasantly surprised.

[htownstr8jackn]

I'm looking forward for one and ill be making the trip to Hardwood to play in starship troopers. Let's just get all along and fight the real enemy. Which is the a**hole making gas prices sore like an eagle.

[Raadio]

I think everyone agrees the following:

1. The rules were really not clearly defined on paper.
2. The paramaters in which the missions should be completed were not clearly defined.
3. The referees were not clear on how the missions should be completed.

These thing left a TREMENDOUS opertunity for interpretation. Some call it "grea area" some call it "Scenario ball" I call it "thinking outside the box". Call it what you want....its how SCENARIOS are won. Its not a mindless game. Regardless I have one question for all of you:

I keep hearing people calling us 'cheaters' and I hear the same people saying it was the promoter...it was the rules...which is it? I go out of my way to make sure the things I attempt are not only approved by the refrees and/or the game director but my teamates as well. Just like the deadman's walk..we discussed it in great detail amongst ourselves and with two refrees INCLUDING the head ref before we left, just to make sure we werent 'cheating'.

I take it very personaly when people call me a cheater. I've been playing scenarios a long time. I love the game and consider myself a stand-up player. And just like Team Thundersturck...Dont apprichate that word being tossed around like it is. So I'm calling ALL you finger pointers out.

Which is it? We cheating or not?

[Metal Cowboy]

I think Viper made a valid remark - "The Spirit of the Game."

Now, I am a nationally certified soccer referee and a former Under-20 National Team member and the phrase "The Spirit of the Game" is used a lot.

Their are a lot of undefined rules is soccer, sometimes these gray areas are called, sometimes they are not. The referee has to use his judgement on how such gray area effects "The Spirit of the Game."

To me, removing the barrel and transporting drugs across the road negatively effect "The Spirit of the Game." Hence, I would never do them.

"The Spirit of the Game" this can be applied to anything . . . taking a test in school . . if your teacher or prof doesn't specificaly tell you during every test that it's not open book, are you going to bust our your book? Of course not . . . what's the difference?

[Viper Paintball]

Okay, let’s have a little history lesson class.

“Scenario paintball” was conceived in the late eighties in a little town called Ocala, Florida. A paintball team there, the “Marion’s Raiders” (Ocala is in Marion county), came up with the idea as a way to raise funds for team equipment and tournaments. The place they would take place would be at our home field, Survival Zone. The field was team operated, so the team got half the proceeds and the field owner (an ex-player) got the other half. However, it didn't take long for us to figure out what we were doing was far more fun than tourney. Back then tourney was 15 man teams in the woods with pumps.

The first two “paintball scenario games” were just night games. The first was “Night Survival” and the other was “The Longest Night.” (The patches are still on my old patch jacket.)

The first “24 Hour Roleplaying Paintball Scenario Game” (Now copyrighted by Wayne Dollack, the World’s first professional scenario director) was “The Hunt for Che Gueverra.”

Skip ahead a few year; the field has sold, and Wayne Dollack has gone pro. Skip ahead to 1996 and I move to Texas and become the second professional paintball scenario producer, with his blessing, and introduce folks west of the Mississippi to the concept of scenario paintball.

Why am I going over all this? Because some of you seem to have elected yourselves experts on what should be part of “scenario paintball” and what shouldn’t.

The truth is these things have ALWAYS been part of scenario paintball…long before YOU were part of scenario paintball. Deadman’s walks, fake props, lying about your color, wearing no armband at all, bluffing, BSing, and all the other things some of you seem to loathe.

I was part of this from the start, as were many others. We helped form and develop what you guys now play. I can remember the first time I suggested helicopter insertions to Wayne. I can remember the first “LAW” launchers. I can remember when we changed to using Nerfs instead of wads of paintballs. I introduced photo recon missions and the “final battle.” There were a lot of people, over a decade ago, who helped build the game you play.

So tell me, what gives any of you the right to tell others what is right or wrong with regard to this? What gives you the right to say what should or shouldn’t be part of something that has existed this way, and pleased countless tens of thousands of players for two decades, because you can’t seem to think fast enough, or your self-image is so fragile that having a fast one pulled on you is to devastating for you to deal with?

How about trying to improve and be a smarter player? That’s what I have constantly strived to do for over twenty years. I am ALWAYS learning. When I fall for something it’s a chance to improve, and I try and do that.

These are part of the game, and have been since before the majority of you were playing, or some of you were born. Expecting directors to take something great, that has pleased tens of thousands of players, and dumb it down so no one can get outsmarted and have their “widdle feewings hurt” is just selfish and ludicrous. Grow up, wise up, and learn to play the game with all your senses and a modicum of intelligence.

And when someone outplays you with skill or wits, try looking at it and learning instead of whining.

If society as a whole is becoming stupider at this alarming rate, someone just take me out now. I don't want to be alive when they start forcing us to keep words to two syllables so everyone can understand what you're saying.

[htownstr8jackn]

Four days later and some ppl are still trying to make a point i think we need to call in Bush and see whats legal and what's not oh im sorry he is just as crooked as all of us. Last thing for the books LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO it should be called Soap Opera Paintball cause damm some people cant seem to leave it alone. Nothing else better to do i guess. Why isn't any of the Big texas scenario ever in the magazines mmmm? Grab your nuts and lets all think about this one.

[Lapdance]

Lapdance was being excorted by a ref and was asked if he was out and both times the ref said YES he is out and looking for a lost barrel! So to answer that question there is your answer!~



<sigh>

Robert, we went over this at the field when you were *****ing about Thunderstruck, and the way we play

The Ref that was escorting me didnt say a word to any of the players on the field during my walk through your territory. He never said I was out because he never said anything. The reason he didnt say anything was because he was never asked.

Next time I suggest you dont ask a ref to do the thinking for you. If you had left the bunker and confronted me directly you might have seen through the subterfuge. Hell.. you have talked to me when I was wearing just my jersey, you might have even noticed that I looked to be about 30 pounds heavier during that walk.

As for the rest of the problems... When you have a scenario that is written by a kid (the field owners son) you get something that is as poorly done as this game was. For those who have never been to a scenario put on by a professional promoter you owe it to yourself to come out and see how they do it.

[bigcountry20]

guys im glad i read all this, i have learned so much about a game that i never knew, yes im being serious....


im glad i play speedball, atleast there its a clear winner and loser lol

just poking fun at the situation guys no need to hate me:p

but it has been entertaining

[THE-TB]

You know at more games then not, there is a definable winner. No matter how much people whine.

The funny part is the lack of respect by some extended to others. Not me, I could care less about people's respect.

[bigcountry20]

well anyone and everyone deserves respect on and off the field until that person has given reason to others and no longer deserves it.... my two cents

buuuuuuuuuuuut its paintball and people will be people and you cant help that.

[woodrow-p]

Hell, now that I know a little more about "real" scenarios. We should have just found where they were stashing those packets of coc one of the times we took Western Town and took them all out into the woods and hid them (which we actually discussed). It wasn't against the rules so it was fair game. Next time, if they aren't going to do any better job of defining what's supposed to happen, we'll make our own rules... lesson learned!;)

TB and Viper, I have learned quite a bit on this thread about scenarios and I appreciate that. However, being a promoter and promoters buddy, you guys may want to look at your approach here. I realize you get mad when someone hollers "cheater", but it seems to me that you two, with your infinite amount of scenario experience, would be able to tell that it was just because some did not have much experience in scenarios and that we're not just a bunch of camo wearing, Tippmann toting, whiney ***, dumb ****, Army wanna be's. Which is basically what I'm getting from most of what you have written. If you guys are really concerned about the state of scenario ball in Texas, you might want to spend less time telling us about where you have been, what you have done and who you did it with or flaming us and more time trying to help diffuse this situation. You guys, more than anyone, have the experience to help something like this. When you come in and land blast everyone with a differing opinion, it just causes me to see you as thugs. I'm sure you guys are not going to like this, but I'm trying to give you an honest opinion from a person you do not know, who was planning on taking my team to one of the viper events when possible. I'm not trying to strike a blow here, I just thought you guys would try to help, not make the situation worse. You guys should realize that people who have not played many scenarios will see the "gray area" as cheating until they are educated. In my first paragraph on this post, we actually discussed doing that prior to the game, but we saw it as a "gray area" and thought it would be cheating so we didn't do it. Again, none of the generals on our side have a lot of these big scenario experience which is the main problem here with every side. I would just think that you two would be able to identify that and help rather than add fuel to the fire. My opinion only, take it for what it's worth.

[Raadio]

Hell, now that I know a little more about "real" scenarios. We should have just found where they were stashing those packets of coc one of the times we took Western Town and took them all out into the woods and hid them (which we actually discussed). It wasn't against the rules so it was fair game. Next time, if they aren't going to do any better job of defining what's supposed to happen, we'll make our own rules... lesson learned!;)

Now THAT would have been funny! But I think you guys couldnt come in the bank. Thats where we were hiding them. In Vipers games, game props cant be taken into the command bunker because you arent suposed to go in there unless you are blowing it up or a commander. Hiding the props from the badguys is one of the most nervracking parts of the game!

It might also be noted, incase the guys from SGoT are reading...in most scenarios you cannt take game props off the field. That solves the "off field exchanges" issue.

I think TB got mad not because he was being called a cheater but because his team was being called a cheater by a bunch of...well I wont call names...but lets just say that had the UN forces won ourtight I dont think we'd be hearing all this crap... I've known TB for a long time and there are two things hes NOT...passive or quiet. He's just sticking up for his guys. And Viper....well....I think if someone walked up to Ronnald McDonnald and tried to tell him how he SHOULD be making Big Mac's...he might get defensive too! LMAO Hmmm...I'm hungrt now...

[woodrow-p]

Now THAT would have been funny! But I think you guys couldnt come in the bank.

Again, another rule (or non-written rule) that was not told to me nor written, so it would have been fair game. Just another example of bad preparation on the part of SGOT. Again, no hard feelings.

As for TB, I've read his web page and I can see he's opinionated and I agree with many of the things he writes. He is probably a lot like me because I, too, stick up for my people and often say what I think and it usually gets me into hot water. I can respect what he has said, but I also think that he should use caution because he is attacking a few, but offending many. Even those few do not understand that they are wrong. He should realize that and help explain rather than attack. Again, my opinion. I'm waiting for the response of, "I don't give a **** what you think"...:)

[Raadio]

I think I have those rule sheets still. I'll see if I can scan em here in a bit. Might help clear some confusion...or fuel the fire LMAO

[Raadio]

Got em....Here ya go


http://www.technicalpimps.com/documents/SGoT_cartel_missions.PDF

http://www.technicalpimps.com/documents/SGoT_columbian_missions.PDF

http://www.technicalpimps.com/documents/SGoT_rebel_missions.PDF

http://www.technicalpimps.com/documents/SGoT_rules.PDF

http://www.technicalpimps.com/documents/SGoT_UN_missions.PDF

[woodrow-p]

Well, there ya go. Oops... At least there was one thing covered...LOL

[woodrow-p]

I think TB got mad not because he was being called a cheater but because his team was being called a cheater by a bunch of...well I wont call names...but lets just say that had the UN forces won ourtight I dont think we'd be hearing all this crap...

...again, let me make it clear that I was the XO for the UN beside Robert. No one on the UN side has much experience in scenario games. To us, at the time it happened, the guy was cheating. I think we all know now that he wasn't and this is a part of the game. I never really got worked up about the things the Thunderstruck guys did. I was more concerned with things Larry described to me that didn't happen as they were supposed to. Also realize that the switching back and forth on who won had nothing to do with what the Thunderstruck guys did, but what was told to us about how the game was supposed to be played that didn't happen.

Anyway, this is a dead horse and I'm not going to keep it going, but I've been out of town since the day after the scenario and I'm catching up on the issues from my point of view.

[Viper Paintball]

Woodrow, I understand where you're coming from, but I'm not sure you realize what inspired me to post as I did, so I'll try and give you some more background.

Additionally, in my rambling you may have missed some important points.

As I said, I've been to far too many events where people ARE given opportunities to LEARN, but they choose to ignore them and complain.

At the other field in Texas I was referring to I deadman walked all the way up the tapeline and got behind some attackers and shot them all in the back. I got shot by a late ball from one of them after they were out, but didn't argue it. I simply called myself out. Their first response was to call me a cheater and claim they saw me walk in through an exit opening in the netting, even though countless people watched my walk up the field inside the netting. I went up and talked to them, and tried to explain what happened, how I did it, how they can do it in the future, AND how to prevent me from doing it to them.

I then proceeded to try the same move again ten minutes later. Know who I got behind? The same three guys doing the same thing in the same spot. (yes, really!) Know what happened? Same as before. :( Not only did they not learn, and continue to complain, but I got threatened as well after I shot them. :mad: This is a prime example of how folks don't learn, because they are too lazy. They would rather I play stupider than expect them to play smarter....even after I told them what I was doing and how to stop me. All they had to do was listen to what I said and put it into practice.

This isn't the first, last, or only time I've taken time to take someone out, and then proceed to tell them how to do it, and how to stop it time. The last time I commanded (and won) I talked alot to the opposing commander and told him some of the things I did that cost him so that he could use them next time he commanded, as well as the mistakes he made on which I capitalized. I didn't present it like I was rubbing his nose in it, but so that he would improve and present more of a challenge next time he took the commander's chair. He was grateful for the insight, and seemed to appreciate it.

You might want to stop by my website and have a look at our forums.

This year we scheduled a captains' retreat to try and pass on helpful info to team captains to help them better form and sustain teams, as well as field tactics, how to accomplish more missions, and commandind a scenario more effectively.

We have also scheduled a "scenario boot camp" in June where players can learn how to be more effective on the field.

TB has also offered to help teach a "scenario commander's workshop" where we will teach all sorts of things that we have used to decisively win many scenario games as commanders and XOs.

None of these are money-making ventures and will, likely, yield no profit. They are being done for love of the game and to help players improve and enjoy playing more.

So, the point I am trying to make is that I can offer to try and educate until I'm blue in the face, but if people only scream cheater when 20 year old tricks are pulled on them, and would rather have the game dumbed down to meet them than rise to the occasion and learn to play better, what can I do?

I'm human. I get frustrated because I want to, and TRY, to educate players to help them improve, not only to help them enjoy the game more, but to provide more competition for me whan I play, and to improve the overall level of play at events. He||, I'm happy to tell anyone every trick I know. But folks don't want to ask, listen, or learn. They just want the game dumbed down so they don't have to think or get better.

So, you see, I do try and help educate. It's the fact that people don't care to improve, but will compain when you outplay them, that ticks me off.

[woodrow-p]

So, the point I am trying to make is that I can offer to try and educate until I'm blue in the face, but if people only scream cheater when 20 year old tricks are pulled on them, and would rather have the game dumbed down to meet them than rise to the occasion and learn to play better, what can I do?

I'm human. I get frustrated because I want to, and TRY, to educate players to help them improve, not only to help them enjoy the game more, but to provide more competition for me whan I play, and to improve the overall level of play at events. He||, I'm happy to tell anyone every trick I know. But folks don't want to ask, listen, or learn. They just want the game dumbed down so they don't have to think or get better.

So, you see, I do try and help educate. It's the fact that people don't care to improve, but will compain when you outplay them, that ticks me off.

I appreciate what you are saying here and I hope you are sincere about it. I can tell you that the folks on this thread from the UN team had not seen these things before and had no idea they were legal. It's not a situation where we knew these things even could happen nor had we seen them before. As I've said many times, none, or not many of us, have been to many scenarios. I've been to 3 and they were all at SGOT and the first 2 my team were basically walk on's and we never even saw the commanders of our team. In the one before this one, my team accomplished a couple of our missions ON OUR OWN with out the XO or General even knowing we were trying to accomplish them.

So MY point here is that we are not whiners and beligerant clowns running around the field. We are very competitive players who are relatively new to the scenario scene who only want a level playing field. I don't want anyone "dumbing" anything down to me. I would rather have the **** beat out of me then to win a game that I do not deserve to win. I just want to know the parameters and not have the other guy cheat me. If the other guy isn't cheating, then explain it to me. If that's how it is, then that's how it is. Again, I've learned a lot from commanding this scenario and discussing these things here. I think it will make me better in the future.

I think you guys should not be so quick on the trigger as well. You have never offered or even discussed any of these issues with us even though you have said some very derogatory things here. Again, you have explained yourself and I can understand from your past experience why you are quick to jump and appreciate that you took the time to explain. Just know that WE ARE NOT THOSE GUYS.

[MikeSmith]

I'm human. I get frustrated because I want to, and TRY, to educate players to help them improve, not only to help them enjoy the game more, but to provide more competition for me whan I play, and to improve the overall level of play at events. He||, I'm happy to tell anyone every trick I know. But folks don't want to ask, listen, or learn. They just want the game dumbed down so they don't have to think or get better.


I'm kinda busy.. Can ya email me the Cliff Notes for those tricks? :D

[Viper Paintball]

Well, as long as you stay in a little pond you have no idea what it's like to swim in the ocean with bigger fish. But if a shark or barracuda gets into your pond he will behave as he has learned.

My point is this, if you really wanna learn what scenario paintball is all about, while SGOT is the oldest field in Houston, and one of the oldest in the country, they aren't "known" for scenarios. Get off the porch and go try some others. #1 PB runs some great one-day events. If you really wanna jump into the deep end come on out to one of mine. The stuff that Lapdance and Raadio pulled there is just the tip of the iceberg, and it's what makes real scenario fun for men and women, and for people of ALL ages.

Ever heard the phrase "Old age and cunning will always triumph over age and enthusiasm."? That means the guys with experience will outthink you on the field if you let them, and if you let them do that they will beat you. That's half of what allows me to do what I do. Some of you young guys are far faster than me. Some of you can shoot better. However, my ability to outthink many players still gives me, and other older guys, an edge, and allows us to be competitive and make big plays that can change the game.

He|| I don't know if I can take on 10 enemy players head-to-head and accomlish anything. But if I can flank them or bluff my way through, then catch 7 of them in the back, I can probably take the other three. :D

But IF just ONE of them, like you, is paying attention, and using their brain and experience along with their trigger, you will see it coming, pop me in the chest, and I will tell you "good job player!" and walk away kowing that someone on that side is thinking, so I better watch it.

I remember a 24 hour game in Florida where I spent the whole thing bluffing my way into large groups and shooting them in the back. I would step right out into the open and walk at the blue guys raving about 40 reds coming through the woods behind me. I was so convincing they would all take positions and start looking fort me. I would even point out the (non-existent) pointmen. As they scanned the trees I would back right through them. I would barrel-tag the rearmost ones until anyone turned around and saw their guys walking out, then I'd shoot the rest. It took until about 10am Sunday morning before anyone stopped me and asked for ID. I faded off into the trees and worked on flanking them instead.

Point is that was a 2000 player game, and 999 of the 1000 enemy players were letting me get away with that for two days.

THAT, my friend, is scenario paintball...the way it was conceived...and the way it's been played for two decades. Whenever you want to come up and run with the big dawgs and learn what scenario paintball is really like, from a director that has been around since the first one, and some players who have been playing Viper events for twelve years in Texas, as well as travelling to other events by myself and the other pros across the country, give me a hollah and I'll personally introduce you around and set you up with folks to run with that will really teach you how to play this game we call "scenario paintball." :)

[Viper Paintball]

Off topic here but Robert, can you please not type in all exclamation points? It's just as bad as typing in all caps and it makes it look like you're yelling all the time.

As far as the fake mission card I am not sure who is responsible for it but the XO and the General had to know about it!


Do you not think it's wrong to openly accuse me of cheating when you don't even have any of your facts straight? It was NOT a mission card. We did NOT get any points for it. I did NOT know about it. I found out after it happened. It was a SAM missile card. At my events the ref would have called in and asked about it. If that ref didn't that is not Chuck's fault. It was meant as a bluff to get the players to make a decision to fly the other way. And Chuck (Runninman) is one of the most honest and sporsmanlike players I have ever met. Most everyone that shoots him gets "Good shot player" shouted back at them as he leaves the field. I take offense that you would call someone you don't know a cheater when he is thought of so highly by his peers.

With regard to my events, there are plenty of events you can go to that still have the "everyone deserves a blue ribbon" attitude. There is only one promoter I know of who believes that players who have paid good money to play should be able to actually play to win, and not be chastised for trying, and they deserve to have the game scored fairly and honestly. No manufactured ties or backpedalling with scores so that everyone walks away feeling like a winner.


"The problem you have is some of the players playing in the grey area!"

Who are you to say what the “grey area” is? How many events, by how many real, professional scenario promoters, have you actually played? Why have I been producing events in this region and others for a dozen years, yet I have never heard of you until six months ago when you began this Internet posting fest in an effort to try and become famous?


"Thunderstruck and promoters like yourself Have forgotten what the Game truely means! We are all out there to have fun! We all play the game for fun! Win lose or Draw We play the game to have fun!"

No, we are not all out there just to have fun. I am out there to test myself against the skills of others, and against myself to see if my skills have improved. I don’t want to play against little children to give myself some false ego boost, and I don’t want to play against hardcore players who are “dumbing down” or playing at half-throttle for the same reason; to give myself some false ego boost. And most folks will admit, winning is more fun than losing.

I want to play against skilled player that I know are playing their best so that, if I do beat them, I can feel like I accomplished something. Do you like to play games where you know your opponent “let you win?” I sure as he|| don’t. Do you want to get your butt handed to you, only to have the event director get up at the end and tell everyone what a “close game” it was, when you know it wasn’t?

Why keep score if everyone is just out screwing around? Why not just get up at the end, like they do at the Special Olympics, and tell everyone that they’re all winners.

My guess is that you haven’t been to many scenarios where skilled players played to win, and that you don’t have the skills or competitiveness to enjoy that sort of environment. My games are marketed to people who want a place to play scenario as hard as they can and not be chastised for it or told to back off. If that doesn’t suit you, you would probably not enjoy my events. There are plenty of others where “everyone can feel like a winner.”


"You wanna talk to me you got my number CALL ME or PM ME! "


I have no desire to call anyone who shows such blatant disrespect for people who have decades in this sport, and in the development of scenario paintball. As I’ve said, I take great offense to being called a cheater.

All of my contact info is on my website. If you ever want to accept responsibility for implying that I cheated based on your misinterpretation and misinformation, I’m here. But you don’t have to hurry.

[xscout]

Anyway, now that everyone has had their chance to wave their epeens, I'd like to thank everyone for their viewpoints, and wish you all a Happy Easter.

Raadar, thanks for the scans to .pdf's, I owe you man.

Well it's all pretty clear now, so you guys take care, enjoy what's left of the weekend and God Bless.

[Raadio]

Anyway, now that everyone has had their chance to wave their epeens, I'd like to thank everyone for their viewpoints, and wish you all a Happy Easter.

Raadar, thanks for the scans to .pdf's, I owe you man.

Well it's all pretty clear now, so you guys take care, enjoy what's left of the weekend and God Bless.

Raadio....but you're very welcome. I got em from MikeSmith.

:D

[xscout]

Raadio, gotcha.

My bad...senility, yeah lovin it.

[Raadio]

Raadio, gotcha.

My bad...senility, yeah lovin it.


I just thought it was too much M.A.S.H.

[dave from the coalition]

i have for years , told people walking around looking for "stuff" that they free to do that , as long as they where dead players and out of play , if they where a live player , they should either consider themselves dead or i would shoot them ---
i have always told my team that anyone just walking around should be shoot or told to take the hit and be a dead player -- a faverite story was to tell people i am ya spy doing a mission to help your side also --- bang just kill the guy


its a tought thing when you are the person fooled , it can be tought to accept ,

better to kill them all and not worry too much about it

[dave from the coalition]

speaking of games in florida , i remeber talking my way into the enemy base , they let me in with a loaded t-8 -- while they got someone in the commad area to talk to me i barrel taged about 12 people then shot the genral when he came out to see what the noise was all about


at skirmish , the had me stand out side the command tent and wait to talk to someone , so i used officall fake c4 and blew it up

the key to a lot of this , it explaining it to the game director first and the head ref clearing it prior to putting the plan in action amking sure there is a ref nearby to deal with the fall out -------

another game , wayne ran low on fake money , so he decided to use the radio shack as a bank , you brought your cash to the banker and she recoreded your depoist

i went to wayne as aasked could i rob the bank ?
his answer was i could but i had to not enter it if held someone for ransom and the banker would pay i could do that , it took 8 hrs to get teh radio/banker to where i could hold her ransom , and i just happened to get lucky she over heard a debate about football and came out to get into the football topic discussion and i was able to capture her and hold her ransom for 150 million dollers ------ but clearing it first with the refs and wayne was the key to it working!!!!!!!!

[Raadio]

Die Thread! Die!

[pbchevo]

Die Thread! Die!

lol yea plz

[woodrow-p]

From what I can see. This topic has kept the traffic going on this particular forum for the last month. I've been coming to this site for well over a year and there isn't much action ever going on. At least this is an interesting topic with useful info going both ways. I don't mind a heated topic, it's interesting.